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Proper Architect
Sorry to hear that guest...I really am. You are certainly not alone. I seem to spend a lot of my time nowadays trying to get people out of the s**t, including people very close to me. If you want to send me a pm and tell me the sorry tale please do. I would be genuinely interested. You are right, you have to watch your back. I have nearly finished an article about the minefields here...hope it will protect a few people out there looking to buy and live here. Good luck with your future.
What I would say to people is, if you don't get together and share your problems and become a force together nothing will change. The old saying is true "united we stand, divided we fall". It has worked for people I know here recently. They worked together against a particular professional and he backed off.
What I would say to people is, if you don't get together and share your problems and become a force together nothing will change. The old saying is true "united we stand, divided we fall". It has worked for people I know here recently. They worked together against a particular professional and he backed off.
I don't know the answer but I wouldn't have thought it would be a legal requirement. Just like you can buy a house without having to use a lawyer, you must be able to submit a project without having to use an architect. Surely you could use an engineer instead or do it yourself. As long as someone submits plans to the right scales and which meet the requirements of the council I don't see how they can insist on using an architect. I have heard of people with a "design" background doing plans in conjunction with an engineer and submitting them. I think the main problem for many people would be the language barrier. Things people might do themselves in their own country they get others to do here because they don't speak Portuguese well enough. I will try to find out pm.
Cos we did ours ourselves. Granted it was a rebuild so we had the outside walls, but we laid out the internal walls, said where the windows and doors were to go, drew up the electrics and gas etc etc. Not much different to be honest to talking to an architect I would think. The builder knows how to lay drains and floor structures etc because he has done it before so we didn't have to go into massive detail.
Did you actually put in a project pm or did you just get renovation licences though? Did your builder consult with an engineer? I think everything here seems to depend on which Câmara you are dealing with and even the person within the Câmara, who you deal with at the time. I know people that renovated a ruin in Silves and went down the road of using an architect to draw up plans and submitting them to the Câmara. They put windows and doors in where there weren't any before and changed the rooms around inside (although NOT the number of rooms/divisions) and were told they didn't need a project just a roof and plastering licence, which they left to the builder to get (who knows whether he actually did or not?). Some other people I know, however, did more or less the same (actually less changes), didn't use an architect and simply got their builder to apply for licences etc and they got hauled into the Câmara after someone complained about what they were doing and they then had to go down the project road retrospectively with an architect! 
I am going with my American friend later today to speak to someone from the Câmara (Silves) about the work he intends doing (you remember the flimsy shepherd's hut?!). I'll try to ask the person the question. I may or may not get a definitive answer.
I am going with my American friend later today to speak to someone from the Câmara (Silves) about the work he intends doing (you remember the flimsy shepherd's hut?!). I'll try to ask the person the question. I may or may not get a definitive answer.
Bottom line is pm, as long as after the work has been done you get a habitation licence from the local Câmara and the cadernetas and certidão agree with what is there, in terms of the amount of rooms and what they are etc etc, you don't have any worries and haven't had the time, trouble and expense of using an architect and putting in a project. Unfortunately, some people aren't so lucky.
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Architect etc
Thanks to you all for the time and effort you have put into answering my question.
We have just returned from 3 weeks in Cvo with what we think will be the most suitable plan for us. We have found a property that sits in a 10,000m2 plot that 'apparently' has planning approval to build a second house. To avoid any complications we have asked our Lawyer to confirm the correct legal position before we start entering into promissory contracts.
As a fallback we have had discussions with the Lagoa Camara and their Architect regarding the extension of our property in VdM - which seemed very positive. We have secured the services of an architect whose initial (no-cost) sketches will be submitted to see if they are acceptable.
The size of our constructed area is 170m2 (at ground level) in a plot of 2,380m2. We are asking for permission to build a further +/- 200m2 which includes an upstairs room with bathroom and a view to die for. The time to get the bureaucracy dealt with has been estimated at 6 months.
As we are planning to move to Cvo permanently in 3 years time - that should give us 'plenty' of time. Watch this space.
Incidentally many thanks to Bruxhinha for the time and effort she has put into compiling a very useful guide to anyone about to embark on property acquisition and construction in The Algarve - it is a really useful document and is highly recommended. Thanks Bruxhinha
We have just returned from 3 weeks in Cvo with what we think will be the most suitable plan for us. We have found a property that sits in a 10,000m2 plot that 'apparently' has planning approval to build a second house. To avoid any complications we have asked our Lawyer to confirm the correct legal position before we start entering into promissory contracts.
As a fallback we have had discussions with the Lagoa Camara and their Architect regarding the extension of our property in VdM - which seemed very positive. We have secured the services of an architect whose initial (no-cost) sketches will be submitted to see if they are acceptable.
The size of our constructed area is 170m2 (at ground level) in a plot of 2,380m2. We are asking for permission to build a further +/- 200m2 which includes an upstairs room with bathroom and a view to die for. The time to get the bureaucracy dealt with has been estimated at 6 months.
As we are planning to move to Cvo permanently in 3 years time - that should give us 'plenty' of time. Watch this space.
Incidentally many thanks to Bruxhinha for the time and effort she has put into compiling a very useful guide to anyone about to embark on property acquisition and construction in The Algarve - it is a really useful document and is highly recommended. Thanks Bruxhinha
No worries Shanagarry. Glad it was of interest. 
I didn't realise I had so much information at my disposal until I started writing and I could probably still add a few things to it. Maybe I'll have to consider making it into a glossy format!
Best of luck with your endeavours and if you need any other information/help just drop me an e-mail.
I didn't realise I had so much information at my disposal until I started writing and I could probably still add a few things to it. Maybe I'll have to consider making it into a glossy format!
Best of luck with your endeavours and if you need any other information/help just drop me an e-mail.
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Update
I knew what I was letting myself in for before I embarked on this project and at this early stage I have already encountered the inevitable bureaucratic obstacles - you all told me so and, for the moment, I have no regrets - I will persist.
For the record we are planning on moving to Cvo in September 2008. We own a property we bought in July 1998 - it has a constructed area of 169 m2 on a plot of 2,380m2. We want to increase the house to a minimum of 250m2 but preferably to 300m2 and we have plenty of room to achieve that. The most important aspect of our current property is the unparalleled sea views from all the terraces - magnificent!
Having run the gauntlet of the many 'cowboy' property experts and so called 'architects', we now seem to have a guy who knows what he is doing and at the moment I am content with the work he has done. He is also known (favourably) to the Camara.
During our month long stay in September we decided to review our approach to the permanent move and came up with Plan B, just in case we cannot get the permission to what we want to do with our existing property. We had been discussing this before leaving the Uk and had started the research into looking for another property that would fulfill our requirements.
I spent hours on the many property websites serving Cvo and came up with 39 opportunities. Having waded through the Estate Agency speak for what on paper looked like 'palaces', we came up with a list of 11 that appeared to be suitable.
Running in parallel with this are the meetings with our architect and reviewing the many sketches and suggestions. He suggests he takes our preferences to the Camara and get some guidance from them as to what would be acceptable - he suggests what we want should not be a problem - now I start to get worried! He also tells us this will take up to 6 months.
House hunting has never been my favourite pastime and the exercise we embarked on did nothing to endear me to consider making it a full time pursuit. My initial reaction to the information I received was the enormous hike in prices since we made our first purchase back in 1995. I was also taken aback by the way some agents would not tell you the whereabouts of a property in Cvo. This was explained by one as the result of people going behind their back and approaching the owner direct to get a better deal. I suggested that if they priced their fees more realistically they might not have that problem.
The more alarming issue for me is that the level of pricing in The Algarve is no different from that here in West Sussex - in fact is is marginally ahead. I would add that the prices some people have put on properties they are trying to sell are totally unrealistic. The only possible outcome of this level of 'silliness' will be the eventual 'killing off' of the rental industry because mortgage payments will be at such a level as to make rentals unaffordable. Anyway, back to the matter in hand....
I have always rated 2 particular agents in the village as they have been about for a long time and I trust them. Needless to say they came up with good prospects. We eventually shortened the list to 2 and then set our sights on one - a Jorge do Lagos 1984 constructed 380m2 house on a plot of 10,000m2 and the very top of our affordable range. A tasteful extension was made to it in 1995. It also had planning permission for the construction of another property on the plot - this was verified by a Camara stamped document in April this year.
The initial owner had the presence of mind when buying the land to buy 2 plots to ensure his views to the sea could not be obstructed - in hindsight a very sensible decision.
After 3 viewings and a lot of calculator crunching I felt that if the plot could be reconfigured differently and I could build a house, this whole thing could become very affordable.
My business partner arrived with his family to stay with us and when told of the opportunity and viewed the property also recognised the wisdom of my suggestion and quickly offered his willingness to particpate. Before getting too excited at the possibility I went to see our Lawyers in Lagoa to get their views.
Having now been back in the UK for 2 weeks and having heard nothing, I sent them a 'hurry up' email this week. I was deflated when they told me that before they could answer my questions (The part of the correspondence follows):
We have already received copies of part of the required documents from Mrs.. In order to verify the viability of detaching a plot of land with approx. 3.000m2 (off the plot without construction), we will have to schedule a meeting with the Town Hall's planning department. This has to do with the fact that (among other criteria) the viability depends on the qualification of the area wherein the property is located, according to the master plan of Lagoa.
Considering that the above is essential to closing the deal and should the planning department's opinion indeed turn out to be positive, we would suggest that we apply for a formal confirmation (i.e. in writing). This to avoid that they could seem willing to approve the detachment at this preliminary stage and eventually change their mind once they review the matter on submission of the respective application, for any reason whatsoever. A written confirmation would most certainly outdo the mere verbal information and protect our position in respect of the Town Hall.
However, these formal confirmations generally take a while to be granted. For example, the last time we asked for similar information it took the Town Hall 3 months to issue the respective document...
As to the referred meeting, in order to schedule the same we will depend on the availability of the head-architect.
In case the dettachment is feasible, we will first need to obtain approval of the building plans in relation to the villa you intend to construct on the prospective plot. Once the same have been approved, we can proceed with the dettachment. The respective time-scale is hard to foresee, yet it will never take less than some 6 months.
In case you intend to proceed with the above, we will obtain the remaining documentation (namely the site plans) and try to set the meeting with the planning department.
While I understand the sense of getting a written approval - the 6 months to do that is incredible. This was not accompanied by any suggestion of cost and may put an end to any chance of the transaction ever getting off the ground.
So for now back to the planning request for our current property with one eye on the market to see if anything suitable emerges. My persistence is driven by the the cold, damp and grey vision I get every morning when I pull the bedroom curtains to be greeted by another dreary West Sussex morning.
For the record we are planning on moving to Cvo in September 2008. We own a property we bought in July 1998 - it has a constructed area of 169 m2 on a plot of 2,380m2. We want to increase the house to a minimum of 250m2 but preferably to 300m2 and we have plenty of room to achieve that. The most important aspect of our current property is the unparalleled sea views from all the terraces - magnificent!
Having run the gauntlet of the many 'cowboy' property experts and so called 'architects', we now seem to have a guy who knows what he is doing and at the moment I am content with the work he has done. He is also known (favourably) to the Camara.
During our month long stay in September we decided to review our approach to the permanent move and came up with Plan B, just in case we cannot get the permission to what we want to do with our existing property. We had been discussing this before leaving the Uk and had started the research into looking for another property that would fulfill our requirements.
I spent hours on the many property websites serving Cvo and came up with 39 opportunities. Having waded through the Estate Agency speak for what on paper looked like 'palaces', we came up with a list of 11 that appeared to be suitable.
Running in parallel with this are the meetings with our architect and reviewing the many sketches and suggestions. He suggests he takes our preferences to the Camara and get some guidance from them as to what would be acceptable - he suggests what we want should not be a problem - now I start to get worried! He also tells us this will take up to 6 months.
House hunting has never been my favourite pastime and the exercise we embarked on did nothing to endear me to consider making it a full time pursuit. My initial reaction to the information I received was the enormous hike in prices since we made our first purchase back in 1995. I was also taken aback by the way some agents would not tell you the whereabouts of a property in Cvo. This was explained by one as the result of people going behind their back and approaching the owner direct to get a better deal. I suggested that if they priced their fees more realistically they might not have that problem.
The more alarming issue for me is that the level of pricing in The Algarve is no different from that here in West Sussex - in fact is is marginally ahead. I would add that the prices some people have put on properties they are trying to sell are totally unrealistic. The only possible outcome of this level of 'silliness' will be the eventual 'killing off' of the rental industry because mortgage payments will be at such a level as to make rentals unaffordable. Anyway, back to the matter in hand....
I have always rated 2 particular agents in the village as they have been about for a long time and I trust them. Needless to say they came up with good prospects. We eventually shortened the list to 2 and then set our sights on one - a Jorge do Lagos 1984 constructed 380m2 house on a plot of 10,000m2 and the very top of our affordable range. A tasteful extension was made to it in 1995. It also had planning permission for the construction of another property on the plot - this was verified by a Camara stamped document in April this year.
The initial owner had the presence of mind when buying the land to buy 2 plots to ensure his views to the sea could not be obstructed - in hindsight a very sensible decision.
After 3 viewings and a lot of calculator crunching I felt that if the plot could be reconfigured differently and I could build a house, this whole thing could become very affordable.
My business partner arrived with his family to stay with us and when told of the opportunity and viewed the property also recognised the wisdom of my suggestion and quickly offered his willingness to particpate. Before getting too excited at the possibility I went to see our Lawyers in Lagoa to get their views.
Having now been back in the UK for 2 weeks and having heard nothing, I sent them a 'hurry up' email this week. I was deflated when they told me that before they could answer my questions (The part of the correspondence follows):
We have already received copies of part of the required documents from Mrs.. In order to verify the viability of detaching a plot of land with approx. 3.000m2 (off the plot without construction), we will have to schedule a meeting with the Town Hall's planning department. This has to do with the fact that (among other criteria) the viability depends on the qualification of the area wherein the property is located, according to the master plan of Lagoa.
Considering that the above is essential to closing the deal and should the planning department's opinion indeed turn out to be positive, we would suggest that we apply for a formal confirmation (i.e. in writing). This to avoid that they could seem willing to approve the detachment at this preliminary stage and eventually change their mind once they review the matter on submission of the respective application, for any reason whatsoever. A written confirmation would most certainly outdo the mere verbal information and protect our position in respect of the Town Hall.
However, these formal confirmations generally take a while to be granted. For example, the last time we asked for similar information it took the Town Hall 3 months to issue the respective document...
As to the referred meeting, in order to schedule the same we will depend on the availability of the head-architect.
In case the dettachment is feasible, we will first need to obtain approval of the building plans in relation to the villa you intend to construct on the prospective plot. Once the same have been approved, we can proceed with the dettachment. The respective time-scale is hard to foresee, yet it will never take less than some 6 months.
In case you intend to proceed with the above, we will obtain the remaining documentation (namely the site plans) and try to set the meeting with the planning department.
While I understand the sense of getting a written approval - the 6 months to do that is incredible. This was not accompanied by any suggestion of cost and may put an end to any chance of the transaction ever getting off the ground.
So for now back to the planning request for our current property with one eye on the market to see if anything suitable emerges. My persistence is driven by the the cold, damp and grey vision I get every morning when I pull the bedroom curtains to be greeted by another dreary West Sussex morning.
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nightrider
Re: Update
Hi Shanagarry,
Portugal, Portugal & Portugal,
It's like a hate and love situation isn't it.
I have read your posting a couple of times and if I may I would like to put my penny's worth in.
Stick with what you have got.
Sit on the back of your architect, who hopefully speaks English, if not take someone with you who speaks Portuguese, next time you are here.
Make the appointment prior to your next visit.
Sorry to have to tell you but 6 months is not abnormal. We waited 1 year for a swimming pool our neighbour 2 years. According to legislation if a Camara does not reply to you within 60days you can go ahead and start, when we suggested this to an architect (who by the way also at the time happended to be the vice-president of a local council) agreed that it was legislation but said basically that no one takes any notice of said legislation and this just about sums up the commence of my above posting to you..... Portugal, Portugal and Portugal:
Stick with what you have already, the location sounds great and I know it's so frustrating, but with a bit of luck you will get there in the end.
But I repeat myself you have got to keep on your architect's back, everytime you come make an appointment exactly as I have said above and above all I would take a friend with you who speaks Portuguese.
If you have not done so already, get a written quote form your architect.
Good Luck. Nightrider.
Please folks be careful out there.
Portugal, Portugal & Portugal,
It's like a hate and love situation isn't it.
I have read your posting a couple of times and if I may I would like to put my penny's worth in.
Stick with what you have got.
Sit on the back of your architect, who hopefully speaks English, if not take someone with you who speaks Portuguese, next time you are here.
Make the appointment prior to your next visit.
Sorry to have to tell you but 6 months is not abnormal. We waited 1 year for a swimming pool our neighbour 2 years. According to legislation if a Camara does not reply to you within 60days you can go ahead and start, when we suggested this to an architect (who by the way also at the time happended to be the vice-president of a local council) agreed that it was legislation but said basically that no one takes any notice of said legislation and this just about sums up the commence of my above posting to you..... Portugal, Portugal and Portugal:
Stick with what you have already, the location sounds great and I know it's so frustrating, but with a bit of luck you will get there in the end.
But I repeat myself you have got to keep on your architect's back, everytime you come make an appointment exactly as I have said above and above all I would take a friend with you who speaks Portuguese.
If you have not done so already, get a written quote form your architect.
Good Luck. Nightrider.
Please folks be careful out there.
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Hi Nightrider
Thank you for your response.
Your advice is in good company - many friends have said the same thing. Proof if proof was needed is reflected in the properties we reviewed and viewed - nothing came close for ambience and privacy. Anything that looked appealing had an advanced six figure price tag - too rich for us.
We are impressed by the architect as he came through our house manager - a lady we trust and admire enormously. Since buying the place we have had work on bathrooms carried out to the highest possible standard - so that augurs well. Let's hope he can get his point across to the Camara and succeed.
However, I have to have a Plan B in the event the Camara reject our planning application. All the views and privacy in the world are no replacement for space.
More importantly, my Wife prefers our present home and barring the emergence of something spectacular - we will persevere with Plan A - after all it is only 2 months since I started the process.
I will keep the reports coming as matters 'progress' and as we have 3 years before we buy the one way ticket - a lot could change in that time.
Thank you for your response.
Your advice is in good company - many friends have said the same thing. Proof if proof was needed is reflected in the properties we reviewed and viewed - nothing came close for ambience and privacy. Anything that looked appealing had an advanced six figure price tag - too rich for us.
We are impressed by the architect as he came through our house manager - a lady we trust and admire enormously. Since buying the place we have had work on bathrooms carried out to the highest possible standard - so that augurs well. Let's hope he can get his point across to the Camara and succeed.
However, I have to have a Plan B in the event the Camara reject our planning application. All the views and privacy in the world are no replacement for space.
More importantly, my Wife prefers our present home and barring the emergence of something spectacular - we will persevere with Plan A - after all it is only 2 months since I started the process.
I will keep the reports coming as matters 'progress' and as we have 3 years before we buy the one way ticket - a lot could change in that time.
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Littlelegs
- CVO Regular
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: Essex
Well we moved into our new villa on 9 September and it was a dream come true - no real problems with builders or architects apart from the time it takes to get past all the red tape etc. we are obviously very lucky after hearing some of your stories. But we do still have the pool to do so fingers crossed that it goes as planned.
GOOD LUCK to anyone who is contemplating doing the same as us iF anyone wants the name of our solicitor/builder/artitect etc please give me a private email and I will be happy to recommended them to you.
Littlelegs
GOOD LUCK to anyone who is contemplating doing the same as us iF anyone wants the name of our solicitor/builder/artitect etc please give me a private email and I will be happy to recommended them to you.
Littlelegs
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Homme Poco
- CVO Master
- Posts: 509
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:26 pm
- Location: CVO/Norfolk
- Contact: